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Thread: Horses Drinking Trough

  1. #1
    LoD's Avatar
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    Horses Drinking Trough

    Worth it or not?

    I normally don't play roman, but a couple of my members back from com7 asked me to do a bit of research regarding the roman horses drinking trough (HDT). I thought I'd share my results with you:


    The horse drinking trough (HDT) gives you a number of advantages and a couple of disadvantages.

    Advantages:
    - Accelerates the production time of cavalry units by 1% per level.
    - Equites Legati consume one crop less at level 10.
    - Equites Imperatoris consume one crop less at level 15.
    - Equites Caesaris consume one crop less at level 20.

    There's a couple of disadvantages about the HDT too:
    - The cost of the building (which, at level 20 will amount to 385485|207575|326180|266875 = 1186115 resources and will have an upkeep of 72 crop/hour.
    - You will have to use a spot in your village - meaning less space for other vital buildings.

    It think that the reduced training time is very very helpful, BUT the main advantage is the reduced crop consumption. The reduced training time is also very difficult to use mathmatecally, so I'll leave that out of the math I'm about to do.
    It is not possible to calculate the number of troops needed before the HDT will become profitable, because each cavalry will save you 1 crop (if you have the required HDT level).
    So, the calculations on the profitability of the HDT will of course depend on your time horizon as you "save" 1 crop per hour per cavalry troop you have.

    If we value each resource equal (lumber=clay=iron=crop), it doesn't take too long before the HDT will become profitable with a certain amount of troops.

    Total cost at level 10: Lumber: 30105 Clay: 16210 Iron: 25470 Crop: 20835 = Total: 92620 resources CP: 32
    Total cost at level 15: Lumber: 110215 Clay: 59350 Iron: 93255 Crop: 76300 = Total: 339120 resources CP: 52
    Total cost at level 20: Lumber: 385485 Clay: 207575 Iron: 326180 Crop: 266875 = Total: 1186115 resources CP: 72

    I've calculated a few examples:

    Example:
    100 scouts only 38,6 days (level 1-10)
    500 scouts only 7,7 days (level 1-10)
    1000 scouts only 3,9 days (level 1-10)
    1500 scouts only 2,6 days (level 1-10)
    2000 scouts only 1,9 days (level 1-10)
    2500 scouts only 1,5 days (level 1-10)
    5000 scouts only 0,8 days (level 1-10)

    Example:
    500 EI's 28,3 days (level 1-15) 20,5 days (level 11-15)
    1000 EI's 14,1 days (level 1-15) 10,3 days (level 11-15)
    1500 EI's 9,4 days (level 1-15) 6,8 days (level 11-15)
    2000 EI's 7,1 days (level 1-15) 5,1 days (level 11-15)
    2500 EI's 5,7 days (level 1-15) 4,1 days (level 11-15)
    5000 EI's 2,8 days (level 1-15) 2,1 days (level 11-15)

    Example:
    500 EC's 98,8 days (level 1-20) 70,6 days (level 16-20)
    1000 EC's 49,4 days (level 1-20) 35,3 days (level 16-20)
    1500 EC's 32,9 days (level 1-20) 23,5 days (level 16-20)
    2000 EC's 24,7 days (level 1-20) 17,6 days (level 16-20)
    2500 EC's 19,8 days (level 1-20) 14,1 days (level 16-20)
    5000 EC's 9,9 days (level 1-20) 7,1 days (level 16-20)

    Example (mixed):
    100 scouts, 500 EI's 23,6 days (level 1-15)
    500 scouts, 500 EI's 14,1 days (level 1-15)
    500 scouts, 1000 EI's 9,4 days (level 1-15)
    500 scouts, 1500 EI's 7,1 days (level 1-15)
    500 scouts, 2500 EI's 4,7 days (level 1-15)
    1000 scouts, 5000 EI's 2,4 days (level 1-15)

    500 scouts, 500 EC's 49,4 days (level 1-20)
    500 scouts, 1000 EC's 32,9 days (level 1-20)
    500 scouts, 1500 EC's 24,7 days (level 1-20)
    500 scouts, 2500 EC's 16,5 days (level 1-20)
    1000 scouts, 5000 EC's 8,2 days (level 1-20)

    As you can see, even with fairly few cavalry troops, the trough become a resource saving building pretty fast.
    The first 10 levels only cost 92620 resources total, which means scouts will repay the cost of the HDT fast.
    The first 15 levels cost 339120 resources total, of course increasing the amount of time and number of troops needed before it becomes profitable.
    At level 20, the HDT cost 1,186,115 resources total, which is rather expensive, but with only 1000 cavalry troops, the HDT will become profitable within 50 days.
    With a roman hammer, 1000 cavalry troops won't be a lot, so you can expect the HDT to repay itself even faster.

    In my opinion, the HDT is a must for any roman - especially offensive romans. In the end, crop is what limits your army size and with this new building, you can decrease the upkeep of cavalry = increase your army size.

    What is more interesting is how the HDT changes the shape of the roman hammer. Some calculations:

    What's better: the EI's or the EC's:

    Before the HDT the EI's had an offensive value per crop upkeep of 40 while the EC was 45. So, according to this long term perspective, the EC's was the best offensive cavalry of the roman empire before the HDT.

    After the HDT gets put into place the offensive value per crop upkeep of both troop types are 60 - so completely equal. This implies that you can "save" the last 5 expensive upgrades of the HDT if you look only at the long term offensive value.
    Of course, if you build it to level 20 you get 5 % faster training time. And the EC is also slightly better at defending - although this troop type shouldn't be used for that.
    What suggests using the EI instead of EC's is their travel speed, their ability to carry more resources and their faster training time.

    In my opinion, EC's are better without the HDT, EI's are better with the HDT. If you choose to use EI's in your hammer, consider building the HDT to level 20 anyway. It improves your ability to build (or rebuild) your hammer and greatly improves your CP production.

    On a sidenote: On short terms (calculated not on crop consumption, but on training cost) the EI's are also better offensive, slightly worse defensive:
    EI's offensive value (based on costs): 85,11
    EC's offensive value (based on costs): 82,95
    EI's overall defensive value (based on costs): 40,78
    EC's overall defensive value (based on costs): 42,63

    A final thing to consider about the new HDT is the ratio of a roman hammer.
    Because the cavalry no longer takes up so much crop, it might be worth increasing the amount of cavalry in the hammer.
    Before the HDT I would have suggested a 4:1 imps:cavalry ratio. Now, I'm leaning towards 3:1, more like what teutons are aiming at, or even more cavalry.
    Before the HDT, the teuton TK was the best offensive cavalry in Travian - now, the roman cavalry have taken over that title!

    (TK's offensive value per crop consumption: 50
    Haeduans offensive value per crop consumption: 46,67
    EI's offensive value per crop consumption WITHOUT the HDT: 40
    EC's offensive value per crop consumption WITHOUT the HDT: 45
    EI's offensive value per crop consumption WITH the HDT: 60
    EC's offensive value per crop consumption WITH the HDT: 60)

    I think Travain just gave big nod to the offensive Roman.

    I hope some of this is of value to you - and please let me know if any of my calculations are wrong.

    /LoD

  2. #2
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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    The most important thing to look at when deciding EI's or ECs for your hammer is

    Offence per hour.

    Crop consumption, resource cost are all just bonus's. And from what I recall EC's with a lvl 20 HDC still produce more offence per hour assuming you have a lvl 20 stable running non stop.

    EC's are just pure awesome anyway so I would still stick to them.

    What I like to is have one hammer village with EC's and Imperions. and another village just for raiding full of leggos and EI's.

  3. #3
    LoD's Avatar
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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    Agree. It really depends on whether crop or time is the resource you lack... if you lack crop, I'd still go with EI's.

  4. #4

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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    Quote Originally Posted by meatbag View Post
    The most important thing to look at when deciding EI's or ECs for your hammer is

    Offence per hour.

    Crop consumption, resource cost are all just bonus's. And from what I recall EC's with a lvl 20 HDC still produce more offence per hour assuming you have a lvl 20 stable running non stop.

    EC's are just pure awesome anyway so I would still stick to them.

    What I like to is have one hammer village with EC's and Imperions. and another village just for raiding full of leggos and EI's.
    First I'd like to say nice work LoD. Meatbag, you have got it totally wrong. See with HDT:

    EI:
    60 attack/ crop
    14fields/ hr
    1510 res to train
    = great hammer unit

    EC:
    60 attack/crop
    10 fields/ hr
    2130 res to train
    =useless hammer unit

    Even building times for the EC are slower!!

    In fact as a roman I wouldn't be building EC's at all!!!

  5. #5

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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    I'm afraid he is right Silverskull, you totally ignored the point he made. As you seem to like numbers, please provide the figures for attack points/time. You will see that ECs provide far more than EIs and therefore for decent players EC are the best option. They are certainly not useless and while it is your choice not to train them, it is also your loss.

  6. #6
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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    The point silverskull brought up is a good one - here's why:

    EC's have 180 attack points and take 0:58:40 to train at level 1.
    EI's have 120 attack points and take 0:44:00 to train at level 1.

    That means that the EC's, if you are training a strong hammer in the shortest possible time (assuming resources are not a problem), EC's are faster to train per attack point.

  7. #7

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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    IMO if you are a GOOD player ( doing really really well )

    then it will be worth it


  8. #8
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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    Quote Originally Posted by LoD View Post
    The point silverskull brought up is a good one - here's why:

    EC's have 180 attack points and take 0:58:40 to train at level 1.
    EI's have 120 attack points and take 0:44:00 to train at level 1.

    That means that the EC's, if you are training a strong hammer in the shortest possible time (assuming resources are not a problem), EC's are faster to train per attack point.
    Actually the point silver skull brought up is completly wrong and opposite to what you are saying.

    travel times mean nothing for a hammer since it will only travel as fast as its slowest unit. and since if you have any talent AT ALL, you will be sending rams with your hammer, and most likely a few catapults as well. - speed means nothing except for raiding. As a roman it I would never use my main hammer for raiding again. - your troops just aren't that expendable.

    The crop upkeep is the same so is irrelevent to this argument.

    the only advantage to EI's is they are cheaper. price should not be an issue to your troop costs. Once you have a nice bunch of croplocked farms and a couple of villages up your sleeve you can maintain a workshop, barracks and stable running 24/7 very easily. What you want to be doing as with any hammer is producing the most offence points in the shortest possible time. As you proved in your post above, EC's win this hands down.

    BEST strategy for a roman - provided you are at least semi decent. make one village purely for EI's and Legoos. - this is your raiding force. Make a HDT here for the EI's and use it just for raiding and clearing small defence forces.

    Have one village purely for your main hammer ( pretty please not in your capital) - Make EC's Imperions and siege equipment. If you are raiding properly you should not have to worry about troop costs whatsoever.

  9. #9
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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    Off topic: I've never played roman... but legionnaires for raiding?

  10. #10
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    Re: Horses Drinking Trough

    yep, leggos are quite good raiders.

    They are the cheapest roman unit, carry the same amount of resources as Imperions only travel 2 fields an hour slower.

    their cost is only 400 compared to 600 for an imperion and training time 4/5 of an imp.

    Hence you can make a lot more raiding potential compared to imperions. - and are much more expendable. - for raiding attack power isn't majorly important as you rarely use your raiding army to clear big defences.

    EI's are considered the romans best raiding troop, and I agree that they are great, just a little too expensive for my liking. At 1410 resources per unit they aren't exactly the most expendable troop, especially in the early game when raiding is the most vital.

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