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Thread: EI Vs EC hammers

  1. #1
    VVV's Avatar
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    EI Vs EC hammers

    Righto,

    So I've probably been the most vociferously rude about people who argue for EI hammers, especially serious hammers/WWKs. I've had to rethink the strategy a little in light of the following, interested to get thoughts from others on this subject.

    I need to specify that this is for slow servers only, for speed servers, attack/build is still the standard, and therefore ECs or go home.

    But on slow servers, attack/build is not the constraining factor everyone claims it to be - and Squid and I will attest to this - in reality it's usually a mix of resource/attack (at least at the start, unless you're a hyperactive raider), and in the long run it's attack/crop - you run out of ability to feed the damn thing when you get much past 500K.

    So here's the rub - the much quoted basic version of the smithy upgrade formula is given as base value * (1 + 0.015 ^ smithy level). If this is correct, then there is no difference between EIs and ECs. Apparently, this formula is wrong, as per kirilloid's massive thread on the attacking mechanics on the .com forum, the real formula is

    upgraded value = base value + (base value + 300 * upkeep / 7) * (1.007 ^ level - 1)

    Which means EIs have a total upgraded attack of 157.2144, ECs 232.6134. Per crop, EIs are at 78.6, ECs are at 77.5 - a little over 1 attack point per crop consumption less for ECS (based on the lower crop consumption after the effects of HDT).

    Throw in the hero weapon on T4 - 20 points per EC, 15 per EI - and you're out to almost a 2 point differential per crop - 86.1 for EIs, 84.2 for ECs.

    So given that I maintain that crop consumption is the limiting factor for WWKs on slow servers, and that EIs cost less res per crop, then you should probably build Imp/EI/Catta hammers and not ECs as I've always maintained, and use the extra resource from the cheaper cavalry in more parties, more villas, and more crop to build a bigger hammer.....

    Of course, nothing is ever that simple - if we accept that anything up to 500K is doable, then this only becomes relevant with artefacts, as you're unlikely to hit your crop constraints without hit, but it's still food for thought...

    Any takers?

    All <3 to Hmphy-Bunny for the sig.


  2. #2
    Lone Ranger's Avatar
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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    your definition of what a hammer is, is in a completely different league of what i consider to be a hammer.

    I know at heart your probly still pro-ec for hammers,but its not black and white, there is (imo) different times when the different troops are justified.

    Here are my arguments of when and where to build each troop.
    1. For players who build a capital hammer, they should build ei's at the start, once they can build ei's 24/7 on a level 18-20 stables, then this is the time to consider to switch over to EC. (though some might argue the cost / effectiveness of smithy upgrades of building different troop types)

    2. for players who are starting to build non capital hammers, its different, its actually not until you have a Stables and a Great stables level 5-10 where you have both villages pumped 24/7 before its worth switching over to EC's in your normal stables.

    For the regular stables, the cost of 24/7 ec production is over 800k per day with a daily attack power of nearly 53k, for the same resources you could run stables 24/7 and a low gs 24/7 giving you a daily attack power of 62k. The other 'neglible' advantage of the Ei is that you tend to reach level 15 HDT earlier (smithy upgrades i think are slighty cheaper) -> neither of these arguments are worth mentioning for vvk's (no thats not a typo, its a reference to any wwk that is large enough for a vvv stamp of approval)

    and finally, i love to have an ei hammer on its own, sometimes in the capital, sometimes not-> just sometimes usefull to have something that can move quickly.

    just my thoughts.

    EDIT:
    I havent taken into account any of the hero hats, so i guess that might change the numbers quite dramatically....

    Played travian for 4 years, and all I got was:

  3. #3
    VVV's Avatar
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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    LR,

    As a Roman, building anywhere close to 24/7, your hammer's crop consumption is very heavily weighted towards cavalry. In T4, with the hero weapon bonus, that means mixing cavalry troops types in any sort of significant numbers weakens your hammer. Then we get to upgrading smithy for more than the necessary number of troops types, and opportunity costs. Lastly, we get the annoyance of having two troop types in your stables.

    Actually, whilst I'm building an EC hammer for my current slow server, if I continue playing, I'm thinking I'm going to switch to EI hammers. I'll at least trial it - I have a feeling that EI hammers, being faster to build initially given the lower res cost, the better raiding in terms of carry and speed, and the lesser crop consumption will hit crop consumption limit faster than EC hammers - and if you don't hit crop consumption limit on an EC hammer, then you should have gone EIs.

    I think as a general rule, I'm going to go with ECs for speed servers, EIs for slow.

    And finally, yes, I tend to talk in terms of hammers being 300K consumption before I consider them as serious. A working hammer that's seeing action all server long should hit 150K minimum, anything less than that on a slow server is not a hammer, it's a rubber mallet.
    Last edited by VVV; 11th September 2012 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Clarification

    All <3 to Hmphy-Bunny for the sig.


  4. #4
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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    things look different both from new accounts that are starting their hammer as soon as possible, to an already established account. Ive re-looked over the numbers taking into an account the largest ec bonus and "weakening" from losing hero bonus, for 800k per day resources the ei on the L20S / L10(approx) GScombo produces 'marginally' (approx 4k offense extra)more offense per day then EC on an L20stables. (so after 30 days would be over 100k additional offense)

    Though that margin is possibly not worth the cost of the smithy upgrades, but for an account that doesnt have the ability to fund EC, this method (in theory and even taken into consideration the loss of hero bonus) produces slightly more offense per day, its not much but for someone that is building the hammer as soon as they can then over a month or two it might make a mentionable difference.

    It might not be a vvk, but im the kind of person that would consider anything built with a B, S, GB and L10 GS to be a hammer.

    Im keen to see your notes on your current EC hammer, (depending on where your at) how many villages until you had L20 stables with 24/7 production?

    Played travian for 4 years, and all I got was:

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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    As a general rule, I aim for for 24/7 production out of B/S/W level 20s by day 90 (which would be 11-12 villas without artworks). GB & GS as soon as I can manage thereafter.

    All <3 to Hmphy-Bunny for the sig.


  6. #6
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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    I'm om a 3.6 atm, and its abundantly clear, for a moderate to serious player you need the capacity for both in your hammer and then the intellect to build situationally. I'm sure its the same for T4.

    Self analysis -> Do your maths (How can i get most attack points from hammer with my circumstances) -> Build accordingly

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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    First, a quick note, I play US servers, but I am extremely experienced. I also always play Roman, so I'm not just shooting my mouth off.


    Quote Originally Posted by VVV View Post
    I think as a general rule, I'm going to go with ECs for speed servers, EIs for slow.
    I disagree with this completely. On a speed server, every second that passes is worth 3 (or more) than on a non speed server. To defend in a speed server, you need to catch incoming attacks a LOT earlier than you do on a non-speed server. For a classic Roman hammer that is being fed out of a 15c, EC are the way to go, but for a self-supporting hammer you want to go EI because they are such good raiders. In T4, with how important oasis raiding has become, and also because of just how much more powerful they are. EI have arguably replaced TT's as the top cavalry (nothing beats the mace obviously) in the game. Not only that, but let's be honest. With a maxed HDP and a tier 2 or 3 cav helm they train obscenely fast to boot.

    They also are still one of the best offensive cav units in the game in terms of just sheer attack power. Let's be honest though, with an EC hammer, even (and especially in a lot of ways) on speed, is always going to be sent with an infantry escort in order to cut down on their losses. With EI, this is not always necessary. With EC, most of the players you are going to be hitting are a minimum of 2, 3 hours out with EC. EI cut this amount of time by a ridiculous amount, allowing you to go for quick in and out strikes on targets which you otherwise could not hit. Put simply, with EI, your opponents simply do not have the time to stack the defence they would need to stop you, while with EC, they are far more likely to despite their higher attack.

    Also, as has been mentioned, crop to attack power ratio is also extremely important. And with the HDP, an EI is only a measley 2 crop per day. A drop in the bucket compared with EC which even after HDP require 3.

    And as a final point to my rant, I would like to reiterate something that I may not have brought across very clearly. Speed, matters. The faster you can hit somebody, the less time they have to call for defence and have it arrive in their village. Particularly on speed. Every. Second. Counts.

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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldar View Post
    And as a final point to my rant, I would like to reiterate something that I may not have brought across very clearly. Speed, matters. The faster you can hit somebody, the less time they have to call for defence and have it arrive in their village. Particularly on speed. Every. Second. Counts.
    Firstly, welcome to .au
    Everyone is going to have their own way of doing things, and i like your point of view, but you've taken vvv out of context. The main context of vvv's statement is directly in regards to a hammer that almost never goes anywhere without cats / rams so speed is negligible.

    You mentioned the crop efficiency with the HDT, without troop upgrades and with L20 HDT, the EI and EC both have the same 60 attack per crop , so its fairly balanced, VVV has shown that with troop upgrades one is slightly stronger per upkeep.

    Played travian for 4 years, and all I got was:

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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    To some it may seem trivial, but another strength of the EC hammer, especially so with the smithy in T4, is the defence that the EC offers. Unless your running a cap hammer and keeping it there, you will be susceptible to being ghosted. I'm never sending TT's to ghost an EC hammer again after my last T4 experience, where I forgot to account for the smithy bonus. It changed from a ~50% loss sim to a ~80% loss attack. Its not really something to underestimate, and really should make you think twice in wanting to get your ghost on against an EC hammer

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    Re: EI Vs EC hammers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Ranger View Post
    Firstly, welcome to .au
    Everyone is going to have their own way of doing things, and i like your point of view, but you've taken vvv out of context. The main context of vvv's statement is directly in regards to a hammer that almost never goes anywhere without cats / rams so speed is negligible.

    You mentioned the crop efficiency with the HDT, without troop upgrades and with L20 HDT, the EI and EC both have the same 60 attack per crop , so its fairly balanced, VVV has shown that with troop upgrades one is slightly stronger per upkeep.
    True enough, but the added flexibility that EI give you in place of imperians, even in the case of a hammer like the one you are talking about is well worth it. Even if the hammer rarely goes anywhere without rams/catas, EI are unbeatable when it comes to preparing accounts to attack. EI are trailblazers, going ahead of the main force and then rejoining for the final assault. Allowing you to use them in order to mess with the opponents mind, hitting village after village after village-and making him uncertain of your own true intentions. You cannot stack def if you don't know where to stack it, and that is one of the main problems of the classic EC/Imp hammer. Unless it is obscenely large, it is almost certain that you WILL lose a fair amount of it on every hit if you are going up against a player or alliance who knows more or less what they are doing. With EI you can reduce that.

    Lets be honest though, you can do all these things with EC as well, but it is much much easier to put up a wall in a village and just hope to get lucky. Put simply, with EC, more players are going to be in range to reinforce, every time. And as the amount of time increases, so proportionately, does the amount of players able and willing to respond. At 1 hour a player is pretty much counting on their own defence, and you can almost certainly clear all of it in an eyeblink if you have anywhere near the amount of EI you should.

    One more thing. While I tend to build EI/Imp hammers, it is still worth mentioning that on a per hour basis you still get more attack power by producing caesaris rather than EI. I don't believe thats been mentioned and it's a rather important consideration.

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